Identify a physician expert on either side who wasn’t paid. You do realize that the way it works in every court in America, right? Experts are compensated. It’s the job of the jury to decide the truth.
I don't think you understand the relevance of the payment-for-services. They don't hire based on criteria or qualification, they hire based on the "expert opinion" that fits their chosen narrative. Before the expert is paid they are asked to create their report based on exactly what will lead-convince the jury or they aren't hired.
Oh, as a 40 year trial lawyer specializing in medical malpractice and civil rights- I understand the court and jury system as well as anyone. As i stated initially, it’s our responsibility to find and retain the very best experts who truthfully understand the case from our clients perspective and to present that position with integrity and honesty. Do some unscrupulous lawyers hire dishonest experts? Yes, every day. Let me know when you figure out a better way for the system to present 2 opposing viewpoints.
"experts who truthfully understand the case FROM OUR CLIENTS PERSPECTIVE..." All credibility already lost. You've confirmed that "Experts" offer subjective testimony, not factual/objective. When you pay experts you lose objectivity. Civil trials are BS and you probably know that. Enroll the best experts for your narrative and you succeed. Rival experts. The case is decided on purchasing individuals to confirm/support you side's position. It's simple. It's disgusting.
1- I have met plenty of people who feel as you do- and I believe if you were severely injured- you would be the first person to hire an attorney and sue.
2- if you don’t agree experts are necessary- how do you propose that trials be conducted?
What does the clinical scenario look like if GF swallowed a massive chunk of fentanyl as the officers were arresting him? There are photos of GF with a large chunk of a white substance in his mouth as officers initially approached him. Progressively worsening dyspnea and then loss of consciousness ? Of course he’s lucid and talking at first, and then the drugs were absorbed into his system. 11ng/dL is fatal.
A 160lb man is not going to suffocate a 260lb man with light pressure on his back. Come on Pierre.
I am a practicing anesthesiologist and expert in the use of Fentanyl.
I am unaware of an oral form of fentanyl but yes, what you describe is nearly impossible? the absorption peak would have to be perfectly timed to hit a toxic level at about 4-5 minutes into his prone position (I cant remember exactly when he lost consciousness) and thus there would have to be a rapid rise in the bloodstream in those four minutes because again he was not lethargic (or even close) when they put him down into prone position. So to go from fully conscious and struggling to unconscious and apneic from oral absorption in 5 minutes... I can't see it. Lets say that it could happen though - then you are left with the fact they did not respond to a lifeless unconscious person for many many minutes - but this latter point I dont like because it is a legal argument more than a medical one but the disregard for his unconscious state for so long is deeply disturbing (I think he was dead for many many minutes before they got off him but that is a hypothesis).
First, I have tremendous respect for you and your work. Curious as to your compensation for this plaintiff report.
Oral transmucosal fentanyl citrate (OTFC) has been around quite awhile and is mainly used to treat breakthrough pain aka “Fentanyl lollipops.” Seems like you should know that fact. It has a similar bioavailability and mechanism of action as IV Fentanyl. Trade name Actiq
The is no evidence the absorption peak would have to occur 4-5 minutes after being placed prone since we have no idea the total amount of drug ingested. You’re assuming things. He could only have absorbed 2% of a 10g dose for it to be fatal before circulation stopped.
Quantify lethargy in the presence of methamphetamine which you seem to ignore.
Why can’t you understand that the ingestion of 5,000 mcg of Fentanyl would result in a fatal level quite rapidly? Again, we don’t know how much he swallowed and 3-4ng/dL is considered a fatal level.
An IV dose of 250mcg and you would be apneic and dying without intervention within 60 seconds. Go to your local OR and watch a cardiac induction of anesthesia.
This is all REASONABLE DOUBT and you are being completely disingenuous to say otherwise.
No doubt the police should have responded better and need better training.
Joel, I am seriously not following your reasoning. No fentanyl lollipops were found and he had no access to any fentanyl or any pill from the moment they took him out of his car. From that moment until he dies was over 20 minutes to over a half hour later (too tired to review all the timeline but multiple conversations and interactions occurred between him and the officers plus he was allowed to sit on the sidewalk for some minutes prior to the prone restraint). Why are you reasoning that whatever form he took when he was in his car prior to being apprehended then "suddenly" got absorbed into his bloodstream during the prone restraint period over 20-30 minutes later in a man who did not evidence severe opiate intoxication prior to being placed in prone restraint? Don't you think the exquisite timing of the two events you need to have occurred (one hypothetical, the other recorded and observable) is so incredibly coincidental and, per your absorption and pharmacokinetics near impossible? If he had taken oral transmucosal fentanyl (is that available on the street and does it come in the form of a pill - I think not but who knows) then him "resisisting arrest" would never have been possible, he would have been dead minutes after being apprehended and prone restraint would have never been required.. What you may not realize is that I first entertained every possibility that this was an opiate overdose but based on the timeline and his cognitive and physical capacity I could in no way support that logic and conclusion.
My compensation for producing the report was the same hourly rate as for any expert witness work I do which is several of hundred dollars lower per hour than standard rates for experts - one possible reason why lawyers sought me for this kind of work.
You wrote: "plus he was allowed to sit on the sidewalk for some minutes prior to the prone restraint" OK, but as I recall he sitting on the sidewalk BEFORE he found out he would be put in the police car. Once he was forced halfway into the police car, then his resisted arrest a lot more than he had already done when they forced him out the car handcuffed him. Were the police incapable of getting him completely into the car and shutting the door? I doubt it, but they did struggle with that for a long time. Using "maximum restraint technique" was taught to the officers, and that involved a prone position of the suspect who is already handcuffed. This fact was not allowed in court by the judge. But the police, with Chavin in a leadership role, were far to slow to relax their restraint when Floyd stopped resisting and then stopped breathing. Thus, the charges of murder.
Oh the COPS TV show I've seen suspects hobbled and thrown prone into the back of a police car. But in Minneapolis police policy was to not have any hobbles on a suspect during transportation.
Dr. Kory addressed the payment issue in his response above where he notes he's been retained in cases where his expert testimony contradicted what his clients requested. His testimony wasn't used, but he still got paid.
Though what's worse about the argument above is that Kory gave his testimony in the civil case, not the criminal case. Civil cases don't have the same evidence requirements for conviction. Reasonable doubt is only an issue in criminal cases. The City of Minneapolis settled its case with Floyd's family. So the civil case never went to court. The City of Minneapolis also settled two other cases involving Chauvin due to Chuavin's use of excessive force in those cases.
You are dead wrong on the admissibility of evidence in a criminal trial versus a civil trial- it’s the same standard. You either intentionally or negligently confuse the standard for conviction with the standard for admissibility of an expert opinion.
"In a criminal case, the state must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant committed the crime of which he's been accused. By contrast, a civil plaintiff must merely show that it is more likely than not that the accusations behind the claim are true. This is called the “preponderance of evidence” standard."
Plus, Dr. Kory (I admire him for all he has been doing during and after pandemic, don’t get me wrong!) avoids talking about the fact that it wasn’t just Fentanyl, it was a cocktail of drugs, with opposite effects—one stimulant, another one depressant, plus, cannabinoids… I wonder if Dr. Kory can assure us he knows the exact clinical picture of how the person who has All that in his blood would die… P.S. I was an Anesthesiologist, too, in my “past life”… Love my colelagues!🙂
Fair question - I dont know "exactly" how someone would act but he was walking, talking, and clear in his communication which is ont consistent with someone under sevre impairment. What no-one asks is "how would someone with a history of severe claustrophobia act?" I don't know that either but his behavior is suggestive
Thank you Dr Kory for all this information, and willingness to converse. It seems to me that when there is doubt -- even among experts -- officer Chauvin should not have been put away essentially for life. The cops were dealing with a huge druggie out of control. Something went wrong. As things sometimes do in life. Why do we demand perfection?
I owe Dr. Kory (and a few others) a lot for helping me get through 2020 with my sanity. So I will cut him some slack for going to bat for us.
But he's an old-school Democrat, who like many other wonderful people (RFK, Taibbi, Shellenberger) clings to a political philosophy that no longer exists, if it ever did.
I addressed this - congested edematous lungs are typical after prolonged CPR. This is why the pathologist did not include it in his summary of findings. And again, nothing observed prior to prone restraint was consistent with someone in acute life threatening pulmonary edema.
Joel man, what is going on? Did you read my post? Someone saying I can't breathe (as well as other disparate symptoms) while engaging in a long conversation is completely inconsistent with acute pulmonary edema. Have you ever intubated someone in acute pulmonary edema to save their life? Did any part of how that patient presented resemble how George Floyd was presenting? Has anyone in life-threatening acute pulmonary edema ever been able to resist arrest? (I know there is no answer to that question)
I also saw the chunk in his mouth; he also had meth in his system which would explain his 'excited' state when first encountered. I watched all the different angles of video during the trial. I thought he spoke more or less normally until he stopped speaking altogether. Shortly after that he urinated, which I assumed was a sign of death. I thought he died of a heart attack from all the drugs in his system. But I still think when he was no longer combative, at least when unconscious, the cuffs should have been removed, roll him on his back and start compressions. My late husband was a nurse but I have no training, and even I thought that was negligent.
Dr. Underwood there were 4 people with their weight on him not one. Please reread the scenario. The average person is 155lb- 40 years ago. You have no idea what they weighed and are speculating wildly. But lets work with that number 70kg X 4= 280 Kg =617lb on his thoracic and abdominal cavity. THAT WOULD IMPEDE RESPIRATION. AND DIAPHRAGMATIC EXPANSION
Yep, you’re real tough as anonymous while my real name and credentials are posted. I laugh in your face!
There is video with one officer on his torso and 2 others on his legs for less than a minute while he’s still talking. Which muscle in the legs aid in respiration?
You LIED when you said one was on his torso the torso is made up of the thoracic and abdominal compartments minus the arms.
The picture from the rear of the vehicle shows 2 officers clearly in view
Chauvin and a second officer right next to him.
There are AT LEAST 2 people that are impeding his respiration by being on his abdominal thoracic cavity. He cannot expand his diaphragm.
Chauvin is clearly seen on his neck and upper thoracic area and the second officer is in view right next to him on his mid to lower thoracic-region I would guess T-9 and upper abdomen which you cannot see.
There is a second picture that also shows the 3 officers better. I was mistaken when I said 4 that is still 210 kg on him and 140kg or 308lbs on his torso.
This is just one picture only ONE OFFICER could be on his legs-STOP LYING PEOPLE EVERYONE ON THIS SITE WILL LOOK AT THOSE PICTURES AND YOU WILL BE EXPOSED
With regard to abdominal muscles in respiration they work with the thoracic intercostals. You know this but many here do not and either you are stupid or forgot or dishonest or a maybe a racist?
Abdominal muscles play an essential role in respiration by aiding in the process of exhalation. When you breathe, your diaphragm contracts and moves downward, creating a vacuum in your chest that draws air into your lungs (inhalation). Exhalation, on the other hand, is a passive process that usually involves the relaxation of the diaphragm. However, during forced or deep exhalation, certain abdominal muscles become active to help expel air from the lungs. These muscles include:
Rectus Abdominis: This is the "six-pack" muscle running vertically down the front of your abdomen. It contracts during exhalation to increase intra-abdominal pressure, which assists in pushing air out of the lungs.
External Obliques: These muscles are located on the sides of the abdomen. When they contract, they help compress the abdominal cavity and assist in forced exhalation.
Internal Obliques: These are deeper muscles beneath the external obliques. They also play a role in compressing the abdomen during exhalation.
Transversus Abdominis: This is the deepest layer of abdominal muscles. It wraps around the abdomen like a corset and is crucial for maintaining abdominal stability. When it contracts, it further compresses the abdominal contents, helping with exhalation.
These abdominal muscles work together with the intercostal muscles (muscles between the ribs) to increase intra-abdominal pressure, which aids in the expulsion of air from the lungs, particularly during activities like coughing, sneezing, heavy lifting, or blowing out a candle.
Finally, sure you would laugh in my face tough guy. Truth is you would cry like a little girl
MINNEAPOLIS (AP) — The former Minneapolis police officer who kneeled on George Floyd's back while another officer kneeled on the Black man's neck was sentenced Friday to 3 1/2 years in prison.
J. Alexander Kueng pleaded guilty in October to a state count of aiding and abetting second-degree manslaughter. In exchange, a charge of aiding and abetting murder was dropped.
There were 2 people on his torso - he plead guilty to it in exchange for decreasing the sentence. 2 PEOPLE NOT ONE 2
But you are NOT a ICU pulmonologist! I agree with his notes on taking levels in light of known drug use. Chronic users require more and more medication to ge the same “feeling” & levels have to be looked at->
Yes, the majority of Chavin’s weight is resting on his back leg. His knee is extended out in front of him and his center of gravity behind the leg, not over the top of his thigh.
It does not matter. What happened was correct police procedure-- every step of the way. Something went wrong. What went wrong was very likely a highly resistant, irrational, drugged-up suspect who wouldn't cooperate with simple and harmless commands. Hence the wild resistance. If you think I'm joking about correct police procedures, see https://www.thefallofminneapolis.com/
The lies are designed to tear us apart, no? That's their purpose.
Since you are an expert in the use of fentanyl how much time would it take for him to die after the unknown white substance (fentanyl?) was in his mouth? 1 minute? 5 minutes?
An area that you are not an expert in is the tolerance level of a 6’4” long term opiate user. 11 ng is fatal to someone with accumulated tolerance?
The bioavailability of swallowed fentanyl is around 30%. Transmucosal bioavailability is 50-90%.
The onset of action is 60seconds to 5 minutes depending on the route.
Actually, Yes, I am an expert in judging the tolerance of patients on long term opiates as I take care of these people every single day! Chronic pain patients are numerous in society.
Everyone has a right to survive an arrest. When you resist you forfeit that right. The murder conviction was societal revenge. Floyd died because his culture taught him to resist. The officer was guilty at most of involuntary manslaughter. Your report and data is correct, but it really doesn't point to why he died. He died because his society told him to resist to death. He isn't alone. He could have been free of intoxicants; no matter.
Yeah, that's a load of hooey. Floyd died because he CHOSE to live the way he did. It is no one's fault but his own. Culture my ass. Quit blaming it on society. What about a society's right not to have to put up with his bad choices? Choices have consequences. He made the wrong one.
Do you have trouble with reading comprehension? He said nothing about good v bad. With that attitude, not so sure you'd fit into the "good" one. His society, referring to his culture. And yes. It is different. It ain't rocket science to figure that part out.
So, you live in a White enclave, and never have to be around "cultures not your own"? Great basis for a determination -- and why this country is going to hell in a handbasket -- and accelerating!!
Where do you even get that from? Do not assume facts not in evidence. Floyd was a criminal. That is a well-known and well-documented fact. The majority of Americans do NOT run in his circle. That's a FACT. And you think there is something wrong with that? What is wrong with you?
THANK YOU, MR. COLEMAN! You said it the best! “When you resist, you forfeit that right”! I thought so, too, that maximum Chauvin was guilty of was an involuntary manslaughter, and even that is a stretch, probably… He was mostly guilty of being an idiot: Knowing that a hostile crowd was recording him, he should have been a little more careful in whatever he thought he was doing…
{sigh} Not his job! HIS job is to restrain a criminal. His PARTNERS' job is to keep a wary eye on the crowd because, not infrequently, they attack or throw things...
Exactly! This is the truth. The problem was not the officers. The problem was all of the people who used Floyd's death to tear the city and the country apart. The problem was, and is, the people who play along with the scheme to divide us, and who will lie for it.
We are not our own enemies. The enemy is the elite agenda to divide, conquer, monitor and manage: to destroy us so they can then build back better.
THAT IS SIMPLY WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN TAUGHT OR CHOSE TO BELIEVE. GEORGE FLOYD WAS A DRUG ADDICT AND HAD A CRIMINAL RECORD OF ARMED ROBBERY IN TEXAS, HE WAS IN THE PROCESS OF COMMITING A CRIME.
Are you really ignorant of the systemic racism that has and does plague the blacks in this country? The fact that they have learned to resist death is a survival instinct. Get real.
Riiiiiight. it was "systemic racism" that caused him to hold a GUN to a pregnant woman's belly... It COULDN'T have been "his" culture, NOT how he was raised, and what he was allowed to get away with all his life. The only PROBLEMS that "plague the blacks" are ones of THEIR making! If you LIVE civilized in a civilized country, then you WON'T be passing counterfeits or attacking cops! And risking death as a RESULT ofy your own choices!
Amen to that. I lived in those communities and went to those public schools. It is a CHOICE. And for those screaming “I’m African-American (thanks to the Clinton administration), let’s see you go live 24 hours with a farmer in Nigeria. You wouldn’t last 2 hours.
Oh, shut the heck up. I grew up in those communities. THEY do this to themselves. They are not a victim. I sat in the same classroom with the same teachers. They were dressed in designer clothes and getting free lunches. Some chose to better themselves some chose to not do that. It is a choice. Stop playing the victim card. The same propaganda is getting oh, so tiresome.
No, there absolutely was no involuntary manslaughter. For that to happen, the officers would've had to been acting rogue and not following correct and accepted police procedures, including what appears to be a knee on the neck. Don't believe it? Then watch this: https://www.thefallofminneapolis.com/
Exactly right. Just like now their culture is telling them they are entitled to commit any crime and should not be punished because they are “owed it.”
Doctor Kory, in spite of some people’s inability to perceive, or determination not to, I honor you for not allowing that to cause you to give up your valiant attempts to present logical proof. I will try to do the same and “keep on keeping on.” 👊🙌❤️
I'm a huge fan of yours and been following you and the FLCCC for over two years. That being said, I am not qualified to judge the detailed medical arguments in this case. I think most people have a problem with the way this issue was politicized and the police officers involved vilified. We had just come off of the whole Jessie Smollett hoax. There is no denying that Floyd resisted arrest and became violent and potentially dangerous to the officers or the fact that he had very high levels of drugs in his system. I don't think you can argue that his behavior, health, and drug use did not contribute to his death. Was the amount of force used necessary, I don't know, but I do know that it was not the only cause of his death. He was using a technique that is authorized by the police force. I don't believe that officers can be expected to anticipate all the possible medical outcomes from using approved suspect detention techniques. For those not used to dealing with dangerous and dishonest suspects it is easy to judge their actions. Coming from a family of police officers I am painfully aware of the people and situations they deal with. Unfortunately, one police officer in the family has quit and will never do police work again due to the events of the last few years. He felt his life was being endangered by the restrictions that have been put on the officers and the lack of support. It is sad for society because he is just the type of officers that we need. We wouldn't be having this conversation if people had confidence in the judicial system and this trial was judged to be fair!
Dr. Kory is A MEDICAL doctor, not a police trainer or chief. There is VIDEO of police forces around the U.S. being TAUGHT exactly that style of restraint. And, since Dr Kory pretty much determined that the MAJOR cause was GF's position -- prone and with his diaphragm restricted and his legs held -- neither of those is "not an authorized technique"!
Yes. Thank you. God bless law enforcement families. Not only are good officers quitting, but unqualified officers are being hired due to DEI. We need to get the communists out of positions of power and end DEI, which facilitates racism.
I’m perfectly willing to accept that Dr. Kory’s conclusion that George Floyd was inadvertently suffocated by the police officers restraining him. And I thank him for taking the time to explain things.
To my mind, the facts that George Floyd had already complained about “not being able to breath” while sitting in the police car, and the fact that criminals are notorious for feigning ailments to derail cops’ procedures led them to put two and two together and in this case get 5, to not understand that that time his complaints were very real and very serious.
Perhaps they were negligent, ultimately guilty of negligent homicide, but none of the evidence I saw has persuaded me that the police were deliberately reckless with George Floyd’s life. Had George Floyd not already complained “of being unable to breath” while sitting upright and unrestrained, and had they not just arrested him for fraud (counterfeiting) I think their culpability would have been much greater.
I don’t believe the jurors felt they could dispassionately and fairly pursue justice when they knew very well that their names and home addresses would be blasted across the country and cause life changing consequences for them if they reached the “wrong” conclusion. It was a travesty of a trial.
What about Chauvin, with hands in his pocket, casually kneeling on Floyd’s neck and upper thoracic spine, and just coincidentally he died then of a drug overdose. Meanwhile, there were other officers who stood around. I am sure they could have placed him in the police car after handcuffing him. What was it, 8 minutes with his knee on Floyd’s neck?
Just above I said that I am perfectly willing to accept that he was suffocated. George Floyd had complained that he was claustrophobic and was not psychologically able to deal with being in the police car. Letting him out was an accommodation to his initial complaints.
At 6’4”, George Floyd was a huge and very strong man and by all accounts very intoxicated on that day. The police on duty would certainly have worried about possibly being violently attacked or of Floyd doing something stupid like jumping in front of a truck. I think that people who aren’t willing to do that job themselves should show some understanding that they reacted to the George Floyd in a different way than they would have responded to a 5’0 woman. The worst parts of the job of being a policeman are not very pleasant and on that day lots of the worst parts came together in a tragic way.
Thanks for your further well reasoned and supported arguments. Though to echo what others have already written, and as the past three to four years have repeatedly illustrated, no amount of reason or critical thought will persuade people too married to a narrative whether that's with masks, mRNA injections, ivermectin, George Floyd or whatever. Some people will not accept any data or evidence that contradicts what they want to believe or need to believe to maintain his or her identity or position in a tribe.
I've lost a bit of respect for you Dr Kory. Your assumptions of Floyd being tolerant to drugs and he could NOT have passed from a drug overdose is a bit unsettling. You never saw the body and you only evaluated information that was written down by others.... who obviously had a stake in denying any other cause for the death than police brutality. Strange you have NO suspicion of a corrupt system that would NOT tell the truth of the death for fear of causing riots. Several items were omitted from the reports such as Floyd swallowing what drugs he had on his person as he was being arrested. THAT was a substantial amount for anyone to have consumed and more so for a man who was already higher than a kite. I HAVE FOLLOWED YOU ALL THE WAY FROM MILWAUKEE TO CALIFORNIA AND ALL THE WAY THROUGH YOUR IVERMECTIN PATH FOR WHICH I GAVE YOU MUCH RESPECT AND HONOR FOR STANDING UP FOR IVERMECTIN but this about Floyd is not what I ever would have expected from you.... to evaluate other people's words and then give them 100% blind credibility without even a doubt of the truth being withheld. Seems the system has finally corrupted you too... sad.... seems there is no one strong enough to stand up for the truth except Trump and he is paying one hell of a price for doing so. Not much of what you say is going to be considered anymore.... the system bought you and now we lose.
Did you read my assessment? It was based on observable actions and a long history of taking care of patients with drug impairments, drug overdoses and numerous causes of respiratory failure. In medicine, a long held adage is "there is the picture and there is the patient" which means the "picture of his toxicology report" was highly discordant with the "patient" -his actions and behaviors, i.e the patients function and cognitive capacity was discordant with a lethal level of fentanyl.
Why is that people can't have a difference of opinion without being rude? Exactly what level of expertise have you risen to that justifies your ill-mannered virtue-signaling that you have failed to qualify?
"THAT was a substantial amount for anyone to have consumed"
Do you think Dr Kory did NOT read the tox report of EXACTLY how much drug GF had in his system? You're making accusations that Kory did not know how much drug there was in the body. If you have magically divined how much it was so that you can write definitively it was "substantial," then perhaps you can tell us HOW MUCH he swallowed, and how much he already HAD taken? Semi-simple math from after that, no?
And when / if your imagined amount DIFFERS FROM THE BODY'S actual drug load determined BY toxicology testing, perhaps you will apologize for slamming Dr Kory with such asinine insults?
The problem is the inability to disagree respectfully. Is this really a hill to die on? If it is, then fair well.
I appreciate Dr. Kory for all he has done and admittedly come to realize in the context of the pharmaceutical industrial complex. I do respect his medical opinion. We don’t have to agree on the outcome of the criminal case...
He was an expert for the civil case, for which I have little concern in the grand scheme of things today.
Hope to meet you in person someday. I’ll be sure to bring husband. He has 21 years of law enforcement experience. Norfolk and Louisville, currently homicide detective (cold case). As for the medical opinion, it makes sense to me but is irrelevant to the broader concerns of what happened following that particular incident. Planned, paid riots. Destruction of small businesses and more death, including the death of a local black businessman here in Louisville. Very un-American. That is not the kind of justice any of us should demand.
I completely agree that my medical opinion was irrelevant to all that happened in the wake of the event. My opinion was not public until at least a year later and the civil case was settled months after all the chaos and was not disseminated publicly. I had nothing to do with the criminal case (didn't even watch it), however Dr. Martin Tobin, literally the world expert on ventilation, arrived at the same opinion in that case.
Regardless, I’m glad Tucker brought it up. Maybe people will think about the absurdity of all that happened that year. It was mind blowing to watch so called medical experts recommend school closures and justify rioting in the same breath. Thank you to all police officers reading this who endured that summer of hell. It was bad for this family. You all have my respect...well except you Kentucky state police who enforced an unlawful order. You should apologize and/or resign.
Planned, paid riots. In VERY CAREFULLY chosen neighborhoods and downtown districts that were/are 'special taxation' areas. JUST like poor still smoking Lahaina (oh -- djah-all FORGET about $700 per family from "our" govt, but multi-billions to pay the pensions of Ukrainian govt workers?!?!) -- these GF-(not)-related riots were land grabs, not randomly chosen areas!
Catherine Austin Fitts covers that beautifully -- and SHE was under-secty for HUD, so she KNOWS a land grab when she sees one! She got a bug in her ear when she saw a map of one of the "rioted and destroyed" areas because it was picture-perfect: EXACTLY the location and buildings FOR a land grab! So she had some of her assistants MAP OUT the riots. What an ODD coincidence! Nearly EVERY RIOT was a land grab!
(Do any of you even KNOW -- that:
1. Nearly EVERY biz (and your home!) insurance co's DO NOT COVER damage from riots/civil unrest/war. NOT a penny!
2. And those few policies that DO cover such damage will pay to rebuild -- but NOT to clear the lot, which costs way above $50k for a very small store!!
3. And since the store owner cannot afford to CLEAR the remains in order TO get any insurance money (IF the place even WAS insured) in order to rebuild... thus:
4. in swoop the money men to snap it up for pennies on the dollar!
(This is what infuriates me about all the (leftie/dem/lib/commie) excusers of looters and destroyers: "Well, the store is insured, the owner's not losing anything..." You can count on ONE HAND the times that is in any way true!
Yup, 1000%, these Globalist Jerk Offs keep saying you will own nothing and like it!! I will go down in flames if that is the case; they deserve a good ass whipping talking like that!!
The audio of the coroner who performed the autopsy on Floyd was carried during several radio newscasts, and he made it very clear that Floyd had a fentanyl level in his blood three times the lethal dose for someone who wasn't addicted to it.
Chronic users have a much higher tolerance than naïve users; they can easily tolerate 10 times as much or more of an opioid that would kill a naive user.
Pierre: Gathering from some of the comments above, a lot of people just don’t want to deal with facts. Or maybe, subconsciously, it is really hard from them to believe that there are some officers (just like some priests, some Boy Scout Leaders, some physicians (Larry Nassar), etc.) who are either anti-social or have some other serious psychiatric disorder. The same thing is operative today with people trying to make excuses for Hamas. I am an Addiction Physician and well aware of the effects of Fentanyl and the other drugs patients are concurrently taking. I have admitted many people in withdrawal. I also happen to have several friends who are police officers. Not one of them defended this officer. In fact, one of them who was both an Emergency Physician and SWAT team officer sent me an article he had published in Police magazine, a periodical for officers, entitled “How to Prevent Positional Asphyxia” (Sept. 9, 2019). So this is both a physician and a police officer who felt a need to educate other officers about the proper technique. That tells me there was a known problem. Derek Chauvin had his knee on Floyd’s neck for 9 minutes and 29 seconds. If you watch the videos carefully, you will see he never changes the expression on his face, appears to be disconnected from what’s going on around him, and had to be prodded by paramedics to let them near Floyd. Testimony showed he had multiple similar previous complaints from citizens. Did Floyd have several drugs in his system? Yes, but he was up, walking and talking, prior to almost 10 minutes of pressure on his trachea. Prior to that, he had walked into a business and tried to give a fake $20 bill to a business owner. So a lot of time had passed while he was under the influence. He was not experiencing any symptoms of impending respiratory arrest. Does anyone here remember that the first officer on the scene actually got out of his car with is weapon drawn? (Over a $20 bill,not an armed robbery) Did Derek Chauvin “intend” to kill him? I doubt it, but there is some reason he would not relent with the pressure from his knee. Most officers would have handcuffed him, put him in the back of the squad, and been done with him. But despite a man telling him he could not breathe, a crowd screaming at him, and paramedics trying to get to the man, Derek would not let up. I respect your conclusion as a Pulmonologist and Critical Care doctor and think at this point, you should just forget about trying to explain things to people who have made up their minds, did not see all the evidence you saw, and refuse to acknowledge their are sometimes people in positions of power who have serious psychiatric problems.
I think many people don’t want to deal with the fact that evil people took a tragic event, made it about race, paid people to riot throughout our country, ruining cities & killing more people in order to control the outcome of an election...during a supposed deadly pandemic. As a mom of two boys, an independent doctor (also an addiction specialist) & wife of a police officer who worked those riots, while Lord Fauci said they were safe, I saw the truth very clearly...all while brainwashed colleagues got on their knees in their white coats and virtue signaled their anti-racism & donated to a communist organization.
Still infuriates me and always will. My husband and I decided never to utter the words, George Floyd, in the house around our children, or to mention the situation whatsoever. He was no martyr and I would never want my children to revere someone like that. We lived in Portland, Oregon, near downtown, and saw the riots firsthand day after day after day. Brainwashed people supported the BLM protests during the day which gave cover to the riots with Antifa at night. They burned and destroyed our city. We listed our house and moved within months to a Conservative Red State. Protests down our street where children were shouting the names of all the dead black criminals who resisted arrest and paid the ultimate price while they and their parents held their fists in the air to “resist”. I held such contempt for those parents, and I wonder all the time what will come of those brainwashed children who know no better. Our country is in trouble...
Mary, your comment would have been improved by using paragraph breaks.
More substantively, you wrote "Most officers would have handcuffed him, put him in the back of the squad, and been done with him." You apparently aren't aware that the cops had initially **tried** to get Floyd to sit in the back of a squad car. It was a failing struggle that lasted at least several minutes. The cops then abandoned that tack and let Floyd lie down on the ground. They didn't force him down.
The paramedics were delayed in getting to Floyd by the presence of the volatile crowd. When they finally arrived, they just put Floyd into the ambulance and immediately drove away (instead of doing anything "medical" on the scene), again because of the crowd. One of the cops (not Chauvin) accompanied Floyd in the ambulance in an attempt to help out.
As for Chauvin's poker face, what would have made more sense, given the surrounding, restive crowd? And if it was you and there was a better alternative, would you have thought of it under those threatening circumstances.
The four cops are the victims here, not Floyd. If an honest account of our times is ever written -- no sure thing -- the plight of those cops will likely be considered America's equivalent to the Dreyfus Affair.
Your points in Pierre’s court are well constructed. I think so many factors were involved in this incident that it is politically managed in many ways. This ruffles the pixels of a clear picture for many. If you have an opinion... state it BUT it is NOT PERSONAL. Simply agree to disagree . Dr. Kory, it took nerve to publish your findings. Now- let it be!
They should have called EMS for sure. I’m guessing the officers knew him well, and it’s possible they thought he was acting. It happens a lot in the field when people don’t want to go to jail. What a shit job. I can’t believe people still sign up for it.
They called EMS **twice** -- once after Floyd had nicked his forehead during the unsuccessful attempt to deposit him in the back of a squad car, the second time, with stepped-up priority, when Floyd was on the ground and visibly deteriorating.
What would the proper police procedure be for an arrestee who has informed police officers that his claustrophobia (and perhaps intoxication) make it impossible for him to be in a police car, where an ambulance is on the way, but there’s still a real risk of the arrestee running away or attacking someone? I am very interested by your answer.
As a police officer you are responsible for the care of your prisoner. If the health of your prisoner is at risk you are responsible. There would be variables to consider, location, manpower, size but in short you have to take all reasonable actions to keep everyone safe, including your prisoner.
George Floyd had complained about being”unable to breathe” even before he was taken out of the police car. It’s reasonable to conclude that Officer Chauvin expected further complaints about being “unable to breathe” regardless of how Floyd was positioned and assumed they could be related to his intoxication.
This may be negligent and incompetent, but I don’t think he was deliberately or maliciously reckless. I think he was so focused on the overdose and other issues going on (he had good reason to be worried that Floyd would become violent if put back in the police car and that he could become violent or a danger to himself if not subdued) that he didn’t catch on to the fact that Floyd’s breathing could be impaired by his position.
I’m perfectly willing to acknowledge that sadistic policemen can be cruel, but none of them would do so in front of cell phone cameras. It makes no sense.
100%, however, if the perp complies and does the right thing, this all gets avoided! It's not like George Floyd was with Wally Cleaver on a lunch break from work, minding his own business, and when the officers approached him, he said gee golly wiz officer, you guys are swell! No, we, the people, didn't get to see all the video footage of what happened. Still, I can tell what I did see in the Summer of 2020: an actual insurrection with buildings being burnt down and innocent people getting murdered in the name of a phony social justice excuse.
WHY wouldn't his alleged claustrophobia ALSO be a problem for putting him in am ambulance? That excuse was good enough to get him out of the police car -- and it was a KINDNESS of the cops to take him out of the police car -- wanna BET "police procedures" are to tell him to calm down and leave him cuffed in the car?
Avalanche This person Mace teaches this for a living WTF??? He just told you it was positional asphyxia and he was taught that and teaches that.
Don Mace just explained that you are responsible for the health of your prisoner. WHAT IS NOT CLEAR?? They had custody and control OVER A FAKE 20 DOLLAR BILL!!!!
They were letting murders out of jail and they will put him in jail over a FAKE TWENTY DOLLAR BILL. The entire country was having psychological problems and not working. Why wasn't Floyd given the same accommodation???
The Coward Floyd held a gun to pregnant women! he was a cancer to society! Not one person in their comment mentioned the retired police officer in MO who was killed while responding as a civilian to his friend's pawn shop that was being looted by the animals that summer! Give me a break, this man was a monster!!
That has nothing to do with positional asphyxia -nothing- His diaphragm was impaired.
Positional asphyxia can indeed cause diaphragmatic impairment. When a person is in a position that restricts their ability to breathe effectively, such as the prone position (lying face down), their diaphragm, which is the primary muscle responsible for breathing, may become compromised. Here's how this can happen:
Chest Compression: In the prone position, the weight of the person's chest and abdomen, along with any external pressure or restraints, can compress the ribcage and limit the ability of the chest wall to expand during inhalation. This chest compression can restrict the diaphragm's movement and its ability to contract fully, reducing the person's ability to take in air. Here there were two people on his posterior thoracic cage and abdomen so he could not breath.
Increased Work of Breathing: When a person is in a compromised position, such as being restrained or pinned down, they may need to exert more effort to breathe. This increased work of breathing can fatigue the diaphragm and other respiratory muscles over time, making it even more challenging for the individual to maintain adequate ventilation. GF slowly ran out of energy to breath
Impaired Lung Function: The prone position may also lead to impaired lung function. The lower lobes of the lungs can become compressed against the ground, reducing ventilation in those areas and limiting the exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide. Another form of mechanical block to the act of respiration.
As a result of these factors, the individual's ability to breathe properly is compromised, which can lead to hypoxia (inadequate oxygen supply to the body's tissues) and hypercapnia (excessive carbon dioxide levels in the blood). Hypoxia and hypercapnia can have serious health consequences, including cardiac arrhythmias, loss of consciousness, and, in severe cases, cardiac arrest. Prolonged periods of positional asphyxia can be life-threatening.
I’m not a Dr and have been retired 10 years. Our training at the time was the awareness of Positional Asphyxia with your prisoner. If you had to place him/her on the ground in cuffs, his positioning was extremely important. Pressure on the subjects chest in awkward positions could cause real impacts on his/her breathing. Efforts had to be made to readjust the subjects position to allow deep breathing. The few incidents I witnessed, the subject made it very clear his/her breathing was extremely restricted. Very panicky!!!
Exactly right Don. Same way they killed that big guy in New York a few years back. I've got plenty of experience in both situations of restraining and being restrained in that manner and it doesn't take much pressure to shut down a guy's breathing in that position. In fact it's the same anatomical effects as being crucified. The only difference is the subject's weight is putting the pressure on his breathing in crucifixion rather than an opponent putting their weight on his back... the above anesthesiologist's comment about 160 lb man not being able to exert that much pressure shows a lack of experience on the mats or in the real world. This gets down to training and selection of police officers and I've found that generally Society gets what it pays for. Everybody wants Navy Seals and ninjas for policeman but they're not willing to pay for that kind of training and selection so mistakes happen.
Positional asphyxia can indeed cause diaphragmatic impairment. When a person is in a position that restricts their ability to breathe effectively, such as the prone position (lying face down), their diaphragm, which is the primary muscle responsible for breathing, may become compromised. Here's how this can happen:
Chest Compression: In the prone position, the weight of the person's chest and abdomen, along with any external pressure or restraints, can compress the ribcage and limit the ability of the chest wall to expand during inhalation. This chest compression can restrict the diaphragm's movement and its ability to contract fully, reducing the person's ability to take in air. Here there were two people on his posterior thoracic cage and abdomen so he could not breath.
Increased Work of Breathing: When a person is in a compromised position, such as being restrained or pinned down, they may need to exert more effort to breathe. This increased work of breathing can fatigue the diaphragm and other respiratory muscles over time, making it even more challenging for the individual to maintain adequate ventilation. GF slowly ran out of energy to breath
Impaired Lung Function: The prone position may also lead to impaired lung function. The lower lobes of the lungs can become compressed against the ground, reducing ventilation in those areas and limiting the exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide. Another form of mechanical block to the act of respiration.
As a result of these factors, the individual's ability to breathe properly is compromised, which can lead to hypoxia (inadequate oxygen supply to the body's tissues) and hypercapnia (excessive carbon dioxide levels in the blood). Hypoxia and hypercapnia can have serious health consequences, including cardiac arrhythmias, loss of consciousness, and, in severe cases, cardiac arrest. Prolonged periods of positional asphyxia can be life-threatening.
"In my previous post on the George Floyd case, I presented a truncated version of the reasoning and evidence supporting my legal expert opinion report and the official eleven-page legal, written testimony that I submitted to the lawyers who retained me in his civil case."
You can stop right there Dr. Kory; you mentioned LEGAL more than you needed too; anytime LEGAL, LAWYER is in the conversation, you can throw it out the window; it is all horse shit!! That is precisely the problem with the current state of affairs in the United States: Lawyers are running the show. Where are the lawyers for the vaccine injured? Where are lawyers for people beaten to oblivion because they didn't wear face diapers? Derek Chauvin Saved the state of Minnesota a lot of money, especially for a coward like George Floyd, who was on a continuous crime spree. Floyd was a cancer to society, and you being a doctor, Dr. Kory, you don't remove some of the cancer. You remove all of it.
The case was never about who or what killed that scumbag. It was about politics 100%.
Was the restraining method legal? Was it part of standard police training?
Yes.
Was Floyd resisting and fighting cops?
Yes.
Does the opioid dose in his blood raise a reasonable doubt about why he died? I'm not talking dispositive, scientific, from-on-high proof, which is not required by our legal system, but does it raise the old "reasonable doubt"?
He died from positional asphyxia and a compromised ability to respirate. What is dispositive is the constitutional right to due process.
Positional asphyxia can indeed cause diaphragmatic impairment. When a person is in a position that restricts their ability to breathe effectively, such as the prone position (lying face down), their diaphragm, which is the primary muscle responsible for breathing, may become compromised. Here's how this can happen:
Chest Compression: In the prone position, the weight of the person's chest and abdomen, along with any external pressure or restraints, can compress the ribcage and limit the ability of the chest wall to expand during inhalation. This chest compression can restrict the diaphragm's movement and its ability to contract fully, reducing the person's ability to take in air. Here there were two people on his posterior thoracic cage and abdomen so he could not breath.
Increased Work of Breathing: When a person is in a compromised position, such as being restrained or pinned down, they may need to exert more effort to breathe. This increased work of breathing can fatigue the diaphragm and other respiratory muscles over time, making it even more challenging for the individual to maintain adequate ventilation. GF slowly ran out of energy to breath
Impaired Lung Function: The prone position may also lead to impaired lung function. The lower lobes of the lungs can become compressed against the ground, reducing ventilation in those areas and limiting the exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide. Another form of mechanical block to the act of respiration.
As a result of these factors, the individual's ability to breathe properly is compromised, which can lead to hypoxia (inadequate oxygen supply to the body's tissues) and hypercapnia (excessive carbon dioxide levels in the blood). Hypoxia and hypercapnia can have serious health consequences, including cardiac arrhythmias, loss of consciousness, and, in severe cases, cardiac arrest. Prolonged periods of positional asphyxia can be life-threatening.
A murder trial is not a scientific investigation seeking truth. It's a procedure in which the state tries to prove a case to a certain standard. The judge instructs the jury on their application of that standard. Apply that fairly and objectively to this case -- along with the other well-known stuff about Floyd -- and it's hard not to have a more than reasonable doubt.
I recall seeing previous video or testimony that George Floyd would say "I can't breath' when put into custody. I also watched Candace Owen's movie The Biggest Lie Ever Told that showed half chewed pills in the floor of the car as well as him telling the cop he took pills. I'm not a doctor and won't claim to be one, but I'm a middle aged women who recognizes patterned behavior and what people do when they're in trouble. You seem to think the statement "I can't breathe" means more than it does. He was a liar and a person who often got in trouble and he took a bunch of pills. It's hard to determine anything except his tragic loss being his own fault caused by his bad judgement and behavior.
No matter what proof you have, some made up their minds long before the event.
This is on both sides of the argument.
On the other hand, you demonstrate that you looked deep into the aspects and came up with the most probable cause of his death.
👍
Some were paid to "make up their minds" and provide testimony.
Identify a physician expert on either side who wasn’t paid. You do realize that the way it works in every court in America, right? Experts are compensated. It’s the job of the jury to decide the truth.
I don't think you understand the relevance of the payment-for-services. They don't hire based on criteria or qualification, they hire based on the "expert opinion" that fits their chosen narrative. Before the expert is paid they are asked to create their report based on exactly what will lead-convince the jury or they aren't hired.
Oh, as a 40 year trial lawyer specializing in medical malpractice and civil rights- I understand the court and jury system as well as anyone. As i stated initially, it’s our responsibility to find and retain the very best experts who truthfully understand the case from our clients perspective and to present that position with integrity and honesty. Do some unscrupulous lawyers hire dishonest experts? Yes, every day. Let me know when you figure out a better way for the system to present 2 opposing viewpoints.
"experts who truthfully understand the case FROM OUR CLIENTS PERSPECTIVE..." All credibility already lost. You've confirmed that "Experts" offer subjective testimony, not factual/objective. When you pay experts you lose objectivity. Civil trials are BS and you probably know that. Enroll the best experts for your narrative and you succeed. Rival experts. The case is decided on purchasing individuals to confirm/support you side's position. It's simple. It's disgusting.
1- I have met plenty of people who feel as you do- and I believe if you were severely injured- you would be the first person to hire an attorney and sue.
2- if you don’t agree experts are necessary- how do you propose that trials be conducted?
What does the clinical scenario look like if GF swallowed a massive chunk of fentanyl as the officers were arresting him? There are photos of GF with a large chunk of a white substance in his mouth as officers initially approached him. Progressively worsening dyspnea and then loss of consciousness ? Of course he’s lucid and talking at first, and then the drugs were absorbed into his system. 11ng/dL is fatal.
A 160lb man is not going to suffocate a 260lb man with light pressure on his back. Come on Pierre.
I am a practicing anesthesiologist and expert in the use of Fentanyl.
I am unaware of an oral form of fentanyl but yes, what you describe is nearly impossible? the absorption peak would have to be perfectly timed to hit a toxic level at about 4-5 minutes into his prone position (I cant remember exactly when he lost consciousness) and thus there would have to be a rapid rise in the bloodstream in those four minutes because again he was not lethargic (or even close) when they put him down into prone position. So to go from fully conscious and struggling to unconscious and apneic from oral absorption in 5 minutes... I can't see it. Lets say that it could happen though - then you are left with the fact they did not respond to a lifeless unconscious person for many many minutes - but this latter point I dont like because it is a legal argument more than a medical one but the disregard for his unconscious state for so long is deeply disturbing (I think he was dead for many many minutes before they got off him but that is a hypothesis).
Dr. Kory,
First, I have tremendous respect for you and your work. Curious as to your compensation for this plaintiff report.
Oral transmucosal fentanyl citrate (OTFC) has been around quite awhile and is mainly used to treat breakthrough pain aka “Fentanyl lollipops.” Seems like you should know that fact. It has a similar bioavailability and mechanism of action as IV Fentanyl. Trade name Actiq
The is no evidence the absorption peak would have to occur 4-5 minutes after being placed prone since we have no idea the total amount of drug ingested. You’re assuming things. He could only have absorbed 2% of a 10g dose for it to be fatal before circulation stopped.
Quantify lethargy in the presence of methamphetamine which you seem to ignore.
Why can’t you understand that the ingestion of 5,000 mcg of Fentanyl would result in a fatal level quite rapidly? Again, we don’t know how much he swallowed and 3-4ng/dL is considered a fatal level.
An IV dose of 250mcg and you would be apneic and dying without intervention within 60 seconds. Go to your local OR and watch a cardiac induction of anesthesia.
This is all REASONABLE DOUBT and you are being completely disingenuous to say otherwise.
No doubt the police should have responded better and need better training.
Joel, I am seriously not following your reasoning. No fentanyl lollipops were found and he had no access to any fentanyl or any pill from the moment they took him out of his car. From that moment until he dies was over 20 minutes to over a half hour later (too tired to review all the timeline but multiple conversations and interactions occurred between him and the officers plus he was allowed to sit on the sidewalk for some minutes prior to the prone restraint). Why are you reasoning that whatever form he took when he was in his car prior to being apprehended then "suddenly" got absorbed into his bloodstream during the prone restraint period over 20-30 minutes later in a man who did not evidence severe opiate intoxication prior to being placed in prone restraint? Don't you think the exquisite timing of the two events you need to have occurred (one hypothetical, the other recorded and observable) is so incredibly coincidental and, per your absorption and pharmacokinetics near impossible? If he had taken oral transmucosal fentanyl (is that available on the street and does it come in the form of a pill - I think not but who knows) then him "resisisting arrest" would never have been possible, he would have been dead minutes after being apprehended and prone restraint would have never been required.. What you may not realize is that I first entertained every possibility that this was an opiate overdose but based on the timeline and his cognitive and physical capacity I could in no way support that logic and conclusion.
My compensation for producing the report was the same hourly rate as for any expert witness work I do which is several of hundred dollars lower per hour than standard rates for experts - one possible reason why lawyers sought me for this kind of work.
You wrote: "plus he was allowed to sit on the sidewalk for some minutes prior to the prone restraint" OK, but as I recall he sitting on the sidewalk BEFORE he found out he would be put in the police car. Once he was forced halfway into the police car, then his resisted arrest a lot more than he had already done when they forced him out the car handcuffed him. Were the police incapable of getting him completely into the car and shutting the door? I doubt it, but they did struggle with that for a long time. Using "maximum restraint technique" was taught to the officers, and that involved a prone position of the suspect who is already handcuffed. This fact was not allowed in court by the judge. But the police, with Chavin in a leadership role, were far to slow to relax their restraint when Floyd stopped resisting and then stopped breathing. Thus, the charges of murder.
Oh the COPS TV show I've seen suspects hobbled and thrown prone into the back of a police car. But in Minneapolis police policy was to not have any hobbles on a suspect during transportation.
Weren’t his blood levels tested for fentanyl? I’m assuming that’s the marker.
Again, what level can a seasoned drug user tolerate?
Asking how much Dr. Kory got paid is in poor taste btw.
Dr. Kory addressed the payment issue in his response above where he notes he's been retained in cases where his expert testimony contradicted what his clients requested. His testimony wasn't used, but he still got paid.
Though what's worse about the argument above is that Kory gave his testimony in the civil case, not the criminal case. Civil cases don't have the same evidence requirements for conviction. Reasonable doubt is only an issue in criminal cases. The City of Minneapolis settled its case with Floyd's family. So the civil case never went to court. The City of Minneapolis also settled two other cases involving Chauvin due to Chuavin's use of excessive force in those cases.
You are dead wrong on the admissibility of evidence in a criminal trial versus a civil trial- it’s the same standard. You either intentionally or negligently confuse the standard for conviction with the standard for admissibility of an expert opinion.
You're making a straw man argument. No one is arguing about "admissibility of evidence". As noted in this link, https://billnettleslaw.com/differences-between-civil-and-criminal-cases/, the standard of evidence to get a conviction is different:
"In a criminal case, the state must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant committed the crime of which he's been accused. By contrast, a civil plaintiff must merely show that it is more likely than not that the accusations behind the claim are true. This is called the “preponderance of evidence” standard."
Plus, Dr. Kory (I admire him for all he has been doing during and after pandemic, don’t get me wrong!) avoids talking about the fact that it wasn’t just Fentanyl, it was a cocktail of drugs, with opposite effects—one stimulant, another one depressant, plus, cannabinoids… I wonder if Dr. Kory can assure us he knows the exact clinical picture of how the person who has All that in his blood would die… P.S. I was an Anesthesiologist, too, in my “past life”… Love my colelagues!🙂
Fair question - I dont know "exactly" how someone would act but he was walking, talking, and clear in his communication which is ont consistent with someone under sevre impairment. What no-one asks is "how would someone with a history of severe claustrophobia act?" I don't know that either but his behavior is suggestive
Thank you Dr Kory for all this information, and willingness to converse. It seems to me that when there is doubt -- even among experts -- officer Chauvin should not have been put away essentially for life. The cops were dealing with a huge druggie out of control. Something went wrong. As things sometimes do in life. Why do we demand perfection?
I owe Dr. Kory (and a few others) a lot for helping me get through 2020 with my sanity. So I will cut him some slack for going to bat for us.
But he's an old-school Democrat, who like many other wonderful people (RFK, Taibbi, Shellenberger) clings to a political philosophy that no longer exists, if it ever did.
See my post above.
I addressed this - congested edematous lungs are typical after prolonged CPR. This is why the pathologist did not include it in his summary of findings. And again, nothing observed prior to prone restraint was consistent with someone in acute life threatening pulmonary edema.
Nothing observed EXCEPT GF actually saying he couldn’t breathe prior to being placed prone.
Joel man, what is going on? Did you read my post? Someone saying I can't breathe (as well as other disparate symptoms) while engaging in a long conversation is completely inconsistent with acute pulmonary edema. Have you ever intubated someone in acute pulmonary edema to save their life? Did any part of how that patient presented resemble how George Floyd was presenting? Has anyone in life-threatening acute pulmonary edema ever been able to resist arrest? (I know there is no answer to that question)
I also saw the chunk in his mouth; he also had meth in his system which would explain his 'excited' state when first encountered. I watched all the different angles of video during the trial. I thought he spoke more or less normally until he stopped speaking altogether. Shortly after that he urinated, which I assumed was a sign of death. I thought he died of a heart attack from all the drugs in his system. But I still think when he was no longer combative, at least when unconscious, the cuffs should have been removed, roll him on his back and start compressions. My late husband was a nurse but I have no training, and even I thought that was negligent.
Dr. Underwood there were 4 people with their weight on him not one. Please reread the scenario. The average person is 155lb- 40 years ago. You have no idea what they weighed and are speculating wildly. But lets work with that number 70kg X 4= 280 Kg =617lb on his thoracic and abdominal cavity. THAT WOULD IMPEDE RESPIRATION. AND DIAPHRAGMATIC EXPANSION
At no point were 4 officers on GF restraining him. This is idiotic.
Floyd’s weight listed on autopsy.
Chavin’s weight listed on his arrest record.
"Video posted on social media appears to show three Minneapolis Police Department officers kneeling on George Floyd during his arrest."
There is a video of them kneeling on his back go look it up. Stop being STUPID
As far as your smart ass comment. I am a surgeon and former linebacker from Michigan and you would not say that to my face. BE Careful Doc.
Yep, you’re real tough as anonymous while my real name and credentials are posted. I laugh in your face!
There is video with one officer on his torso and 2 others on his legs for less than a minute while he’s still talking. Which muscle in the legs aid in respiration?
Fact: GF acutely overdosed on Fentanyl.
You LIED when you said one was on his torso the torso is made up of the thoracic and abdominal compartments minus the arms.
The picture from the rear of the vehicle shows 2 officers clearly in view
Chauvin and a second officer right next to him.
There are AT LEAST 2 people that are impeding his respiration by being on his abdominal thoracic cavity. He cannot expand his diaphragm.
Chauvin is clearly seen on his neck and upper thoracic area and the second officer is in view right next to him on his mid to lower thoracic-region I would guess T-9 and upper abdomen which you cannot see.
There is a second picture that also shows the 3 officers better. I was mistaken when I said 4 that is still 210 kg on him and 140kg or 308lbs on his torso.
This is just one picture only ONE OFFICER could be on his legs-STOP LYING PEOPLE EVERYONE ON THIS SITE WILL LOOK AT THOSE PICTURES AND YOU WILL BE EXPOSED
With regard to abdominal muscles in respiration they work with the thoracic intercostals. You know this but many here do not and either you are stupid or forgot or dishonest or a maybe a racist?
Abdominal muscles play an essential role in respiration by aiding in the process of exhalation. When you breathe, your diaphragm contracts and moves downward, creating a vacuum in your chest that draws air into your lungs (inhalation). Exhalation, on the other hand, is a passive process that usually involves the relaxation of the diaphragm. However, during forced or deep exhalation, certain abdominal muscles become active to help expel air from the lungs. These muscles include:
Rectus Abdominis: This is the "six-pack" muscle running vertically down the front of your abdomen. It contracts during exhalation to increase intra-abdominal pressure, which assists in pushing air out of the lungs.
External Obliques: These muscles are located on the sides of the abdomen. When they contract, they help compress the abdominal cavity and assist in forced exhalation.
Internal Obliques: These are deeper muscles beneath the external obliques. They also play a role in compressing the abdomen during exhalation.
Transversus Abdominis: This is the deepest layer of abdominal muscles. It wraps around the abdomen like a corset and is crucial for maintaining abdominal stability. When it contracts, it further compresses the abdominal contents, helping with exhalation.
These abdominal muscles work together with the intercostal muscles (muscles between the ribs) to increase intra-abdominal pressure, which aids in the expulsion of air from the lungs, particularly during activities like coughing, sneezing, heavy lifting, or blowing out a candle.
Finally, sure you would laugh in my face tough guy. Truth is you would cry like a little girl
MINNEAPOLIS (AP) — The former Minneapolis police officer who kneeled on George Floyd's back while another officer kneeled on the Black man's neck was sentenced Friday to 3 1/2 years in prison.
J. Alexander Kueng pleaded guilty in October to a state count of aiding and abetting second-degree manslaughter. In exchange, a charge of aiding and abetting murder was dropped.
There were 2 people on his torso - he plead guilty to it in exchange for decreasing the sentence. 2 PEOPLE NOT ONE 2
But you are NOT a ICU pulmonologist! I agree with his notes on taking levels in light of known drug use. Chronic users require more and more medication to ge the same “feeling” & levels have to be looked at->
“LIGHT PRESSURE” on his back? Did you see the video? Is this a joke? Are you being facetious? Because you absolutely can’t be serious.
Yes, the majority of Chavin’s weight is resting on his back leg. His knee is extended out in front of him and his center of gravity behind the leg, not over the top of his thigh.
Body mechanics over emotions!
And Chauvin's hands were in his trouser pockets.
It does not matter. What happened was correct police procedure-- every step of the way. Something went wrong. What went wrong was very likely a highly resistant, irrational, drugged-up suspect who wouldn't cooperate with simple and harmless commands. Hence the wild resistance. If you think I'm joking about correct police procedures, see https://www.thefallofminneapolis.com/
The lies are designed to tear us apart, no? That's their purpose.
Dr. Underwood, I would like to interview you on MedicalTruthPodcast.com to discuss the Danger of Fentanyl and its use in Medicine. email me at MeicalTruthPodcast@gmail.com James Egidio
Dr. Cosimo van Nostrand, MD, PhD, DDS, JD, LLD, MBA, RN, BA, BS, Dr.Sc, is also available for a chat.
So is Dr. Cuturcockoff!!
Since you are an expert in the use of fentanyl how much time would it take for him to die after the unknown white substance (fentanyl?) was in his mouth? 1 minute? 5 minutes?
An area that you are not an expert in is the tolerance level of a 6’4” long term opiate user. 11 ng is fatal to someone with accumulated tolerance?
The bioavailability of swallowed fentanyl is around 30%. Transmucosal bioavailability is 50-90%.
The onset of action is 60seconds to 5 minutes depending on the route.
Actually, Yes, I am an expert in judging the tolerance of patients on long term opiates as I take care of these people every single day! Chronic pain patients are numerous in society.
Try again.
What if the 260lb man has a bad heart, is intoxicated, and probably has sundry other ailments?
Everyone has a right to survive an arrest. When you resist you forfeit that right. The murder conviction was societal revenge. Floyd died because his culture taught him to resist. The officer was guilty at most of involuntary manslaughter. Your report and data is correct, but it really doesn't point to why he died. He died because his society told him to resist to death. He isn't alone. He could have been free of intoxicants; no matter.
Yeah, that's a load of hooey. Floyd died because he CHOSE to live the way he did. It is no one's fault but his own. Culture my ass. Quit blaming it on society. What about a society's right not to have to put up with his bad choices? Choices have consequences. He made the wrong one.
We are in complete agreement. I was referring to 'his' society, not the polite rule following society.
“His society, not” the good ones, like us. SMH.
Do you have trouble with reading comprehension? He said nothing about good v bad. With that attitude, not so sure you'd fit into the "good" one. His society, referring to his culture. And yes. It is different. It ain't rocket science to figure that part out.
You think that's NOT true?
So, you live in a White enclave, and never have to be around "cultures not your own"? Great basis for a determination -- and why this country is going to hell in a handbasket -- and accelerating!!
Where do you even get that from? Do not assume facts not in evidence. Floyd was a criminal. That is a well-known and well-documented fact. The majority of Americans do NOT run in his circle. That's a FACT. And you think there is something wrong with that? What is wrong with you?
You missed the point.
THANK YOU, MR. COLEMAN! You said it the best! “When you resist, you forfeit that right”! I thought so, too, that maximum Chauvin was guilty of was an involuntary manslaughter, and even that is a stretch, probably… He was mostly guilty of being an idiot: Knowing that a hostile crowd was recording him, he should have been a little more careful in whatever he thought he was doing…
{sigh} Not his job! HIS job is to restrain a criminal. His PARTNERS' job is to keep a wary eye on the crowd because, not infrequently, they attack or throw things...
Husband said exactly this. Put him back in the car. Relocate. Different situation entirely.
I retract this opinion after watching the body cam footage in thefallofminneapolis.com, because they clearly tried.
Exactly! This is the truth. The problem was not the officers. The problem was all of the people who used Floyd's death to tear the city and the country apart. The problem was, and is, the people who play along with the scheme to divide us, and who will lie for it.
We are not our own enemies. The enemy is the elite agenda to divide, conquer, monitor and manage: to destroy us so they can then build back better.
THAT IS SIMPLY WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN TAUGHT OR CHOSE TO BELIEVE. GEORGE FLOYD WAS A DRUG ADDICT AND HAD A CRIMINAL RECORD OF ARMED ROBBERY IN TEXAS, HE WAS IN THE PROCESS OF COMMITING A CRIME.
Are you really ignorant of the systemic racism that has and does plague the blacks in this country? The fact that they have learned to resist death is a survival instinct. Get real.
Riiiiiight. it was "systemic racism" that caused him to hold a GUN to a pregnant woman's belly... It COULDN'T have been "his" culture, NOT how he was raised, and what he was allowed to get away with all his life. The only PROBLEMS that "plague the blacks" are ones of THEIR making! If you LIVE civilized in a civilized country, then you WON'T be passing counterfeits or attacking cops! And risking death as a RESULT ofy your own choices!
Amen to that. I lived in those communities and went to those public schools. It is a CHOICE. And for those screaming “I’m African-American (thanks to the Clinton administration), let’s see you go live 24 hours with a farmer in Nigeria. You wouldn’t last 2 hours.
Resisting a lawful arrest is dangerous, if not a suicide mission. And that has nothing to do with the color of your skin.
Cause of death: resisting arrest. If only.
Oh, shut the heck up. I grew up in those communities. THEY do this to themselves. They are not a victim. I sat in the same classroom with the same teachers. They were dressed in designer clothes and getting free lunches. Some chose to better themselves some chose to not do that. It is a choice. Stop playing the victim card. The same propaganda is getting oh, so tiresome.
No, there absolutely was no involuntary manslaughter. For that to happen, the officers would've had to been acting rogue and not following correct and accepted police procedures, including what appears to be a knee on the neck. Don't believe it? Then watch this: https://www.thefallofminneapolis.com/
Exactly right. Just like now their culture is telling them they are entitled to commit any crime and should not be punished because they are “owed it.”
Doctor Kory, in spite of some people’s inability to perceive, or determination not to, I honor you for not allowing that to cause you to give up your valiant attempts to present logical proof. I will try to do the same and “keep on keeping on.” 👊🙌❤️
I'm a huge fan of yours and been following you and the FLCCC for over two years. That being said, I am not qualified to judge the detailed medical arguments in this case. I think most people have a problem with the way this issue was politicized and the police officers involved vilified. We had just come off of the whole Jessie Smollett hoax. There is no denying that Floyd resisted arrest and became violent and potentially dangerous to the officers or the fact that he had very high levels of drugs in his system. I don't think you can argue that his behavior, health, and drug use did not contribute to his death. Was the amount of force used necessary, I don't know, but I do know that it was not the only cause of his death. He was using a technique that is authorized by the police force. I don't believe that officers can be expected to anticipate all the possible medical outcomes from using approved suspect detention techniques. For those not used to dealing with dangerous and dishonest suspects it is easy to judge their actions. Coming from a family of police officers I am painfully aware of the people and situations they deal with. Unfortunately, one police officer in the family has quit and will never do police work again due to the events of the last few years. He felt his life was being endangered by the restrictions that have been put on the officers and the lack of support. It is sad for society because he is just the type of officers that we need. We wouldn't be having this conversation if people had confidence in the judicial system and this trial was judged to be fair!
Stacy S: "a problem with the way this issue was politicized "
Yes, this! A THOUSAND times this!
Clearly, you didn’t read it, the whole thing. Sigh...
Dr. Kory explains that it is NOT an authorized technique. These responses are just so sad. It’s like “my mind’s made up, don’t confuse me with facts”.
Dr. Kory is A MEDICAL doctor, not a police trainer or chief. There is VIDEO of police forces around the U.S. being TAUGHT exactly that style of restraint. And, since Dr Kory pretty much determined that the MAJOR cause was GF's position -- prone and with his diaphragm restricted and his legs held -- neither of those is "not an authorized technique"!
Nail on the head.
Yes. Thank you. God bless law enforcement families. Not only are good officers quitting, but unqualified officers are being hired due to DEI. We need to get the communists out of positions of power and end DEI, which facilitates racism.
I’m perfectly willing to accept that Dr. Kory’s conclusion that George Floyd was inadvertently suffocated by the police officers restraining him. And I thank him for taking the time to explain things.
To my mind, the facts that George Floyd had already complained about “not being able to breath” while sitting in the police car, and the fact that criminals are notorious for feigning ailments to derail cops’ procedures led them to put two and two together and in this case get 5, to not understand that that time his complaints were very real and very serious.
Perhaps they were negligent, ultimately guilty of negligent homicide, but none of the evidence I saw has persuaded me that the police were deliberately reckless with George Floyd’s life. Had George Floyd not already complained “of being unable to breath” while sitting upright and unrestrained, and had they not just arrested him for fraud (counterfeiting) I think their culpability would have been much greater.
I don’t believe the jurors felt they could dispassionately and fairly pursue justice when they knew very well that their names and home addresses would be blasted across the country and cause life changing consequences for them if they reached the “wrong” conclusion. It was a travesty of a trial.
What about Chauvin, with hands in his pocket, casually kneeling on Floyd’s neck and upper thoracic spine, and just coincidentally he died then of a drug overdose. Meanwhile, there were other officers who stood around. I am sure they could have placed him in the police car after handcuffing him. What was it, 8 minutes with his knee on Floyd’s neck?
Negligent homicide at best.
Just above I said that I am perfectly willing to accept that he was suffocated. George Floyd had complained that he was claustrophobic and was not psychologically able to deal with being in the police car. Letting him out was an accommodation to his initial complaints.
At 6’4”, George Floyd was a huge and very strong man and by all accounts very intoxicated on that day. The police on duty would certainly have worried about possibly being violently attacked or of Floyd doing something stupid like jumping in front of a truck. I think that people who aren’t willing to do that job themselves should show some understanding that they reacted to the George Floyd in a different way than they would have responded to a 5’0 woman. The worst parts of the job of being a policeman are not very pleasant and on that day lots of the worst parts came together in a tragic way.
Thanks for your further well reasoned and supported arguments. Though to echo what others have already written, and as the past three to four years have repeatedly illustrated, no amount of reason or critical thought will persuade people too married to a narrative whether that's with masks, mRNA injections, ivermectin, George Floyd or whatever. Some people will not accept any data or evidence that contradicts what they want to believe or need to believe to maintain his or her identity or position in a tribe.
I've lost a bit of respect for you Dr Kory. Your assumptions of Floyd being tolerant to drugs and he could NOT have passed from a drug overdose is a bit unsettling. You never saw the body and you only evaluated information that was written down by others.... who obviously had a stake in denying any other cause for the death than police brutality. Strange you have NO suspicion of a corrupt system that would NOT tell the truth of the death for fear of causing riots. Several items were omitted from the reports such as Floyd swallowing what drugs he had on his person as he was being arrested. THAT was a substantial amount for anyone to have consumed and more so for a man who was already higher than a kite. I HAVE FOLLOWED YOU ALL THE WAY FROM MILWAUKEE TO CALIFORNIA AND ALL THE WAY THROUGH YOUR IVERMECTIN PATH FOR WHICH I GAVE YOU MUCH RESPECT AND HONOR FOR STANDING UP FOR IVERMECTIN but this about Floyd is not what I ever would have expected from you.... to evaluate other people's words and then give them 100% blind credibility without even a doubt of the truth being withheld. Seems the system has finally corrupted you too... sad.... seems there is no one strong enough to stand up for the truth except Trump and he is paying one hell of a price for doing so. Not much of what you say is going to be considered anymore.... the system bought you and now we lose.
Did you read my assessment? It was based on observable actions and a long history of taking care of patients with drug impairments, drug overdoses and numerous causes of respiratory failure. In medicine, a long held adage is "there is the picture and there is the patient" which means the "picture of his toxicology report" was highly discordant with the "patient" -his actions and behaviors, i.e the patients function and cognitive capacity was discordant with a lethal level of fentanyl.
Seems to me you had made up your mind about the police officers.
Why is that people can't have a difference of opinion without being rude? Exactly what level of expertise have you risen to that justifies your ill-mannered virtue-signaling that you have failed to qualify?
THIS^^^^^^^
You aren’t reading what he wrote very carefully. I suggest you read it again and get your facts straight before going on and on like this
Your reaction says more about your shortsightedness than anybody else’s.
"THAT was a substantial amount for anyone to have consumed"
Do you think Dr Kory did NOT read the tox report of EXACTLY how much drug GF had in his system? You're making accusations that Kory did not know how much drug there was in the body. If you have magically divined how much it was so that you can write definitively it was "substantial," then perhaps you can tell us HOW MUCH he swallowed, and how much he already HAD taken? Semi-simple math from after that, no?
And when / if your imagined amount DIFFERS FROM THE BODY'S actual drug load determined BY toxicology testing, perhaps you will apologize for slamming Dr Kory with such asinine insults?
The problem is the inability to disagree respectfully. Is this really a hill to die on? If it is, then fair well.
I appreciate Dr. Kory for all he has done and admittedly come to realize in the context of the pharmaceutical industrial complex. I do respect his medical opinion. We don’t have to agree on the outcome of the criminal case...
He was an expert for the civil case, for which I have little concern in the grand scheme of things today.
Hope to meet you in person someday. I’ll be sure to bring husband. He has 21 years of law enforcement experience. Norfolk and Louisville, currently homicide detective (cold case). As for the medical opinion, it makes sense to me but is irrelevant to the broader concerns of what happened following that particular incident. Planned, paid riots. Destruction of small businesses and more death, including the death of a local black businessman here in Louisville. Very un-American. That is not the kind of justice any of us should demand.
I completely agree that my medical opinion was irrelevant to all that happened in the wake of the event. My opinion was not public until at least a year later and the civil case was settled months after all the chaos and was not disseminated publicly. I had nothing to do with the criminal case (didn't even watch it), however Dr. Martin Tobin, literally the world expert on ventilation, arrived at the same opinion in that case.
Regardless, I’m glad Tucker brought it up. Maybe people will think about the absurdity of all that happened that year. It was mind blowing to watch so called medical experts recommend school closures and justify rioting in the same breath. Thank you to all police officers reading this who endured that summer of hell. It was bad for this family. You all have my respect...well except you Kentucky state police who enforced an unlawful order. You should apologize and/or resign.
Planned, paid riots. In VERY CAREFULLY chosen neighborhoods and downtown districts that were/are 'special taxation' areas. JUST like poor still smoking Lahaina (oh -- djah-all FORGET about $700 per family from "our" govt, but multi-billions to pay the pensions of Ukrainian govt workers?!?!) -- these GF-(not)-related riots were land grabs, not randomly chosen areas!
Catherine Austin Fitts covers that beautifully -- and SHE was under-secty for HUD, so she KNOWS a land grab when she sees one! She got a bug in her ear when she saw a map of one of the "rioted and destroyed" areas because it was picture-perfect: EXACTLY the location and buildings FOR a land grab! So she had some of her assistants MAP OUT the riots. What an ODD coincidence! Nearly EVERY RIOT was a land grab!
(Do any of you even KNOW -- that:
1. Nearly EVERY biz (and your home!) insurance co's DO NOT COVER damage from riots/civil unrest/war. NOT a penny!
2. And those few policies that DO cover such damage will pay to rebuild -- but NOT to clear the lot, which costs way above $50k for a very small store!!
3. And since the store owner cannot afford to CLEAR the remains in order TO get any insurance money (IF the place even WAS insured) in order to rebuild... thus:
4. in swoop the money men to snap it up for pennies on the dollar!
(This is what infuriates me about all the (leftie/dem/lib/commie) excusers of looters and destroyers: "Well, the store is insured, the owner's not losing anything..." You can count on ONE HAND the times that is in any way true!
Got to Love the 2nd Amendment!!
Yup, 1000%, these Globalist Jerk Offs keep saying you will own nothing and like it!! I will go down in flames if that is the case; they deserve a good ass whipping talking like that!!
Your point is well made re: the consequences to business owners in”riot zones”.
The audio of the coroner who performed the autopsy on Floyd was carried during several radio newscasts, and he made it very clear that Floyd had a fentanyl level in his blood three times the lethal dose for someone who wasn't addicted to it.
" lethal dose for someone who wasn't addicted to it."
And there's your qualifier!
George Floyd was a long-term fentanyl addict, so it took longer to kill him, but a triple overdose finally won.
Chronic users have a much higher tolerance than naïve users; they can easily tolerate 10 times as much or more of an opioid that would kill a naive user.
Do you have a reference or do you expect me to just believe you?
Naivete has nothing to do with it.
Pierre: Gathering from some of the comments above, a lot of people just don’t want to deal with facts. Or maybe, subconsciously, it is really hard from them to believe that there are some officers (just like some priests, some Boy Scout Leaders, some physicians (Larry Nassar), etc.) who are either anti-social or have some other serious psychiatric disorder. The same thing is operative today with people trying to make excuses for Hamas. I am an Addiction Physician and well aware of the effects of Fentanyl and the other drugs patients are concurrently taking. I have admitted many people in withdrawal. I also happen to have several friends who are police officers. Not one of them defended this officer. In fact, one of them who was both an Emergency Physician and SWAT team officer sent me an article he had published in Police magazine, a periodical for officers, entitled “How to Prevent Positional Asphyxia” (Sept. 9, 2019). So this is both a physician and a police officer who felt a need to educate other officers about the proper technique. That tells me there was a known problem. Derek Chauvin had his knee on Floyd’s neck for 9 minutes and 29 seconds. If you watch the videos carefully, you will see he never changes the expression on his face, appears to be disconnected from what’s going on around him, and had to be prodded by paramedics to let them near Floyd. Testimony showed he had multiple similar previous complaints from citizens. Did Floyd have several drugs in his system? Yes, but he was up, walking and talking, prior to almost 10 minutes of pressure on his trachea. Prior to that, he had walked into a business and tried to give a fake $20 bill to a business owner. So a lot of time had passed while he was under the influence. He was not experiencing any symptoms of impending respiratory arrest. Does anyone here remember that the first officer on the scene actually got out of his car with is weapon drawn? (Over a $20 bill,not an armed robbery) Did Derek Chauvin “intend” to kill him? I doubt it, but there is some reason he would not relent with the pressure from his knee. Most officers would have handcuffed him, put him in the back of the squad, and been done with him. But despite a man telling him he could not breathe, a crowd screaming at him, and paramedics trying to get to the man, Derek would not let up. I respect your conclusion as a Pulmonologist and Critical Care doctor and think at this point, you should just forget about trying to explain things to people who have made up their minds, did not see all the evidence you saw, and refuse to acknowledge their are sometimes people in positions of power who have serious psychiatric problems.
I think many people don’t want to deal with the fact that evil people took a tragic event, made it about race, paid people to riot throughout our country, ruining cities & killing more people in order to control the outcome of an election...during a supposed deadly pandemic. As a mom of two boys, an independent doctor (also an addiction specialist) & wife of a police officer who worked those riots, while Lord Fauci said they were safe, I saw the truth very clearly...all while brainwashed colleagues got on their knees in their white coats and virtue signaled their anti-racism & donated to a communist organization.
Still infuriates me and always will. My husband and I decided never to utter the words, George Floyd, in the house around our children, or to mention the situation whatsoever. He was no martyr and I would never want my children to revere someone like that. We lived in Portland, Oregon, near downtown, and saw the riots firsthand day after day after day. Brainwashed people supported the BLM protests during the day which gave cover to the riots with Antifa at night. They burned and destroyed our city. We listed our house and moved within months to a Conservative Red State. Protests down our street where children were shouting the names of all the dead black criminals who resisted arrest and paid the ultimate price while they and their parents held their fists in the air to “resist”. I held such contempt for those parents, and I wonder all the time what will come of those brainwashed children who know no better. Our country is in trouble...
Mary, your comment would have been improved by using paragraph breaks.
More substantively, you wrote "Most officers would have handcuffed him, put him in the back of the squad, and been done with him." You apparently aren't aware that the cops had initially **tried** to get Floyd to sit in the back of a squad car. It was a failing struggle that lasted at least several minutes. The cops then abandoned that tack and let Floyd lie down on the ground. They didn't force him down.
The paramedics were delayed in getting to Floyd by the presence of the volatile crowd. When they finally arrived, they just put Floyd into the ambulance and immediately drove away (instead of doing anything "medical" on the scene), again because of the crowd. One of the cops (not Chauvin) accompanied Floyd in the ambulance in an attempt to help out.
As for Chauvin's poker face, what would have made more sense, given the surrounding, restive crowd? And if it was you and there was a better alternative, would you have thought of it under those threatening circumstances.
The four cops are the victims here, not Floyd. If an honest account of our times is ever written -- no sure thing -- the plight of those cops will likely be considered America's equivalent to the Dreyfus Affair.
Your points in Pierre’s court are well constructed. I think so many factors were involved in this incident that it is politically managed in many ways. This ruffles the pixels of a clear picture for many. If you have an opinion... state it BUT it is NOT PERSONAL. Simply agree to disagree . Dr. Kory, it took nerve to publish your findings. Now- let it be!
They should have called EMS for sure. I’m guessing the officers knew him well, and it’s possible they thought he was acting. It happens a lot in the field when people don’t want to go to jail. What a shit job. I can’t believe people still sign up for it.
They did one was on the way
They called EMS **twice** -- once after Floyd had nicked his forehead during the unsuccessful attempt to deposit him in the back of a squad car, the second time, with stepped-up priority, when Floyd was on the ground and visibly deteriorating.
As a 38 year police veteran, it’s known as “Positional Asphyxia” as what I have taught and was taught.
Don, I really appreciate your experience and perspective here.
My deepest respect for you Dr Kory!! I have followed you since the beginning. Would be honoured to meet one day!!
100%!
What would the proper police procedure be for an arrestee who has informed police officers that his claustrophobia (and perhaps intoxication) make it impossible for him to be in a police car, where an ambulance is on the way, but there’s still a real risk of the arrestee running away or attacking someone? I am very interested by your answer.
As a police officer you are responsible for the care of your prisoner. If the health of your prisoner is at risk you are responsible. There would be variables to consider, location, manpower, size but in short you have to take all reasonable actions to keep everyone safe, including your prisoner.
George Floyd had complained about being”unable to breathe” even before he was taken out of the police car. It’s reasonable to conclude that Officer Chauvin expected further complaints about being “unable to breathe” regardless of how Floyd was positioned and assumed they could be related to his intoxication.
This may be negligent and incompetent, but I don’t think he was deliberately or maliciously reckless. I think he was so focused on the overdose and other issues going on (he had good reason to be worried that Floyd would become violent if put back in the police car and that he could become violent or a danger to himself if not subdued) that he didn’t catch on to the fact that Floyd’s breathing could be impaired by his position.
I’m perfectly willing to acknowledge that sadistic policemen can be cruel, but none of them would do so in front of cell phone cameras. It makes no sense.
100%, however, if the perp complies and does the right thing, this all gets avoided! It's not like George Floyd was with Wally Cleaver on a lunch break from work, minding his own business, and when the officers approached him, he said gee golly wiz officer, you guys are swell! No, we, the people, didn't get to see all the video footage of what happened. Still, I can tell what I did see in the Summer of 2020: an actual insurrection with buildings being burnt down and innocent people getting murdered in the name of a phony social justice excuse.
A lot of police bodycam video is available, e.g. this half-hour chunk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkEGGLu_fNU
WHY wouldn't his alleged claustrophobia ALSO be a problem for putting him in am ambulance? That excuse was good enough to get him out of the police car -- and it was a KINDNESS of the cops to take him out of the police car -- wanna BET "police procedures" are to tell him to calm down and leave him cuffed in the car?
Avalanche This person Mace teaches this for a living WTF??? He just told you it was positional asphyxia and he was taught that and teaches that.
Don Mace just explained that you are responsible for the health of your prisoner. WHAT IS NOT CLEAR?? They had custody and control OVER A FAKE 20 DOLLAR BILL!!!!
They were letting murders out of jail and they will put him in jail over a FAKE TWENTY DOLLAR BILL. The entire country was having psychological problems and not working. Why wasn't Floyd given the same accommodation???
I know he is a POS but WTF?
The Coward Floyd held a gun to pregnant women! he was a cancer to society! Not one person in their comment mentioned the retired police officer in MO who was killed while responding as a civilian to his friend's pawn shop that was being looted by the animals that summer! Give me a break, this man was a monster!!
That has nothing to do with positional asphyxia -nothing- His diaphragm was impaired.
Positional asphyxia can indeed cause diaphragmatic impairment. When a person is in a position that restricts their ability to breathe effectively, such as the prone position (lying face down), their diaphragm, which is the primary muscle responsible for breathing, may become compromised. Here's how this can happen:
Chest Compression: In the prone position, the weight of the person's chest and abdomen, along with any external pressure or restraints, can compress the ribcage and limit the ability of the chest wall to expand during inhalation. This chest compression can restrict the diaphragm's movement and its ability to contract fully, reducing the person's ability to take in air. Here there were two people on his posterior thoracic cage and abdomen so he could not breath.
Increased Work of Breathing: When a person is in a compromised position, such as being restrained or pinned down, they may need to exert more effort to breathe. This increased work of breathing can fatigue the diaphragm and other respiratory muscles over time, making it even more challenging for the individual to maintain adequate ventilation. GF slowly ran out of energy to breath
Impaired Lung Function: The prone position may also lead to impaired lung function. The lower lobes of the lungs can become compressed against the ground, reducing ventilation in those areas and limiting the exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide. Another form of mechanical block to the act of respiration.
As a result of these factors, the individual's ability to breathe properly is compromised, which can lead to hypoxia (inadequate oxygen supply to the body's tissues) and hypercapnia (excessive carbon dioxide levels in the blood). Hypoxia and hypercapnia can have serious health consequences, including cardiac arrhythmias, loss of consciousness, and, in severe cases, cardiac arrest. Prolonged periods of positional asphyxia can be life-threatening.
This is why they were convicted.
Thank you for serving. My brother is retired US Marshall Service & husband is a detective. It’s a dark, tough job. Most people have no idea.
Officer Mace
Does it impede diaphragmatic expansion and retraction? Is that the cause for asphyxia? Please advise
Thanks
BF
I’m not a Dr and have been retired 10 years. Our training at the time was the awareness of Positional Asphyxia with your prisoner. If you had to place him/her on the ground in cuffs, his positioning was extremely important. Pressure on the subjects chest in awkward positions could cause real impacts on his/her breathing. Efforts had to be made to readjust the subjects position to allow deep breathing. The few incidents I witnessed, the subject made it very clear his/her breathing was extremely restricted. Very panicky!!!
Exactly right Don. Same way they killed that big guy in New York a few years back. I've got plenty of experience in both situations of restraining and being restrained in that manner and it doesn't take much pressure to shut down a guy's breathing in that position. In fact it's the same anatomical effects as being crucified. The only difference is the subject's weight is putting the pressure on his breathing in crucifixion rather than an opponent putting their weight on his back... the above anesthesiologist's comment about 160 lb man not being able to exert that much pressure shows a lack of experience on the mats or in the real world. This gets down to training and selection of police officers and I've found that generally Society gets what it pays for. Everybody wants Navy Seals and ninjas for policeman but they're not willing to pay for that kind of training and selection so mistakes happen.
I read about it officer and here is the analysis
Positional asphyxia can indeed cause diaphragmatic impairment. When a person is in a position that restricts their ability to breathe effectively, such as the prone position (lying face down), their diaphragm, which is the primary muscle responsible for breathing, may become compromised. Here's how this can happen:
Chest Compression: In the prone position, the weight of the person's chest and abdomen, along with any external pressure or restraints, can compress the ribcage and limit the ability of the chest wall to expand during inhalation. This chest compression can restrict the diaphragm's movement and its ability to contract fully, reducing the person's ability to take in air. Here there were two people on his posterior thoracic cage and abdomen so he could not breath.
Increased Work of Breathing: When a person is in a compromised position, such as being restrained or pinned down, they may need to exert more effort to breathe. This increased work of breathing can fatigue the diaphragm and other respiratory muscles over time, making it even more challenging for the individual to maintain adequate ventilation. GF slowly ran out of energy to breath
Impaired Lung Function: The prone position may also lead to impaired lung function. The lower lobes of the lungs can become compressed against the ground, reducing ventilation in those areas and limiting the exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide. Another form of mechanical block to the act of respiration.
As a result of these factors, the individual's ability to breathe properly is compromised, which can lead to hypoxia (inadequate oxygen supply to the body's tissues) and hypercapnia (excessive carbon dioxide levels in the blood). Hypoxia and hypercapnia can have serious health consequences, including cardiac arrhythmias, loss of consciousness, and, in severe cases, cardiac arrest. Prolonged periods of positional asphyxia can be life-threatening.
In your opening rebuttal below,
"In my previous post on the George Floyd case, I presented a truncated version of the reasoning and evidence supporting my legal expert opinion report and the official eleven-page legal, written testimony that I submitted to the lawyers who retained me in his civil case."
You can stop right there Dr. Kory; you mentioned LEGAL more than you needed too; anytime LEGAL, LAWYER is in the conversation, you can throw it out the window; it is all horse shit!! That is precisely the problem with the current state of affairs in the United States: Lawyers are running the show. Where are the lawyers for the vaccine injured? Where are lawyers for people beaten to oblivion because they didn't wear face diapers? Derek Chauvin Saved the state of Minnesota a lot of money, especially for a coward like George Floyd, who was on a continuous crime spree. Floyd was a cancer to society, and you being a doctor, Dr. Kory, you don't remove some of the cancer. You remove all of it.
Please do post the whole thing; be interested to see it.
The case was never about who or what killed that scumbag. It was about politics 100%.
Was the restraining method legal? Was it part of standard police training?
Yes.
Was Floyd resisting and fighting cops?
Yes.
Does the opioid dose in his blood raise a reasonable doubt about why he died? I'm not talking dispositive, scientific, from-on-high proof, which is not required by our legal system, but does it raise the old "reasonable doubt"?
Yes.
Case ***effin*** closed.
He died from positional asphyxia and a compromised ability to respirate. What is dispositive is the constitutional right to due process.
Positional asphyxia can indeed cause diaphragmatic impairment. When a person is in a position that restricts their ability to breathe effectively, such as the prone position (lying face down), their diaphragm, which is the primary muscle responsible for breathing, may become compromised. Here's how this can happen:
Chest Compression: In the prone position, the weight of the person's chest and abdomen, along with any external pressure or restraints, can compress the ribcage and limit the ability of the chest wall to expand during inhalation. This chest compression can restrict the diaphragm's movement and its ability to contract fully, reducing the person's ability to take in air. Here there were two people on his posterior thoracic cage and abdomen so he could not breath.
Increased Work of Breathing: When a person is in a compromised position, such as being restrained or pinned down, they may need to exert more effort to breathe. This increased work of breathing can fatigue the diaphragm and other respiratory muscles over time, making it even more challenging for the individual to maintain adequate ventilation. GF slowly ran out of energy to breath
Impaired Lung Function: The prone position may also lead to impaired lung function. The lower lobes of the lungs can become compressed against the ground, reducing ventilation in those areas and limiting the exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide. Another form of mechanical block to the act of respiration.
As a result of these factors, the individual's ability to breathe properly is compromised, which can lead to hypoxia (inadequate oxygen supply to the body's tissues) and hypercapnia (excessive carbon dioxide levels in the blood). Hypoxia and hypercapnia can have serious health consequences, including cardiac arrhythmias, loss of consciousness, and, in severe cases, cardiac arrest. Prolonged periods of positional asphyxia can be life-threatening.
A murder trial is not a scientific investigation seeking truth. It's a procedure in which the state tries to prove a case to a certain standard. The judge instructs the jury on their application of that standard. Apply that fairly and objectively to this case -- along with the other well-known stuff about Floyd -- and it's hard not to have a more than reasonable doubt.
I recall seeing previous video or testimony that George Floyd would say "I can't breath' when put into custody. I also watched Candace Owen's movie The Biggest Lie Ever Told that showed half chewed pills in the floor of the car as well as him telling the cop he took pills. I'm not a doctor and won't claim to be one, but I'm a middle aged women who recognizes patterned behavior and what people do when they're in trouble. You seem to think the statement "I can't breathe" means more than it does. He was a liar and a person who often got in trouble and he took a bunch of pills. It's hard to determine anything except his tragic loss being his own fault caused by his bad judgement and behavior.